Douglas Murray and Jonathan Pageau | EP 290
görünümler 603,583
Gün önceJonathan Pageau, Douglas Murray, and Dr Jordan B Peterson discuss our hierarchies of perception, existence, faith, and whether meaning is a self evident truth or something intangible that is sought in vain.
Jonathan Pageau is a French-Canadian liturgical artist and icon carver, known for his work featured in museums across the world. He carves Eastern Orthodox and other traditional images, and teaches an online carving class. He also runs a TRshow channel dedicated to the exploration of symbolism across history and religion.
Douglas Murray is a British political commentator and author. In 2007 he founded a think tank called the Center for Social Cohesion, which later became part of the Henry Jackson Society. Currently he is an associate editor for the magazine the Spectator, where he became somewhat infamous after organizing a competition in which entrants were invited to submit offensive poems about Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, with a top prize of £1,000. He has authored five books, the most recent of which being “The War on the West.”
Dr Peterson's extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+: utm.io/ueSXh
-Links-
For Douglass Murray:
Website: douglasmurray.net/
(Book) The War on the West: www.amazon.com/War-West-Dougl...
(Book) The Strange Death of Europe: www.amazon.com/Strange-Death-...
For Jonathan Pageau:
Icon Carving: www.pageaucarvings.com
Podcast: www.thesymbolicworld.com
TRshow Channel: / jonathanpageau
-Chapters-
(0:00) Coming Up
(1:10) Intro
(4:18) A Precondition for a Rational World View
(10:29) The Battle of Conceptions
(14:55) Perceived Unity and the Glass
(21:58) Do Science and Religion Overlap?
(29:41) The Hierarchy of Perception and Action
(38:45) The Bible Was Not Written Forensically
(48:25) Using the Least Possible Thing to Describe the Realness of Everything
(57:07) Are We Meaning-Seeking Beings, or is There Meaning?
(1:05:56) To What Degree Does Something Exist Prior to Elaboration?
(1:12:04) The Cause of Demoralization in Our Society
(1:17:58) The Advantage of Organized Religion
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Randy Baccio 8 aylar önce
JP is the only person that makes me feel more intelligent and more stupid at the same time.
Alan Siegfried 8 aylar önce
very good description!
Spherical Cow 8 aylar önce
I think that’s the definition of a great teacher.
Derek J Fiedler 8 aylar önce
Which JP?
Christina Carr 8 aylar önce
That means it's working!
Tara 8 aylar önce
lol
Dan CL 6 aylar önce
50 years as a Christian…and It’s insane to me that this is the best sermon I’ve ever heard!
Yeshurun Music 5 aylar önce
Amen.
Saul Clarke 5 aylar önce
That's weird.
Atlas Feynman 4 aylar önce
That's TRshow.
The deified Julius 4 aylar önce
50 years as an adherent to a ressentinent morality… that is something to deplore and lament, not something to be proud of.
VinegarPisser 4 aylar önce
@The deified Julius can you elaborate ?
Paul Simon McCarthy 5 aylar önce
Atheist here, but I thoroughly enjoyed all three contributions here. Really wonderful, deep, and very touching conversation. Mad respect to you all!
matt hobbs 8 aylar önce
As a lifelong atheist/agnostic raised in the presbyterian church, it wasn’t until a very close family member who was Antiochian orthodox just recently passed away that I started to feel my inner architecture shift towards some longing curiosity towards orthodoxy. For whatever reason, talks like this one and others involving Jonathan Pageau have completely blown me wide-open, kicked down the doors and started remodeling my inner architecture. I’ve never been this kind of person at all, but I found myself weeping tears of joy/relief on my commute to work this morning as I listen to this. Thank you, gentlemen. Now starts my real work.
Rome Is Burning 6 aylar önce
This happened to two hardcore atheist friends of mine after our mutual friend passed away, who was in the Orthodox Church with me. The truth is that our friend was pulling them with his prayers to God. You have a guy on the inside.
Theoretically 3 aylar önce
Amazing❤ Glory to God!! Orthodoxy is the one and true church of Christ. ❤
D K 2 aylar önce
Welcome brother
Nikos Antikythera 28 gün önce
☦
AudrinaOralay 8 aylar önce
I feel like I'm starving in my doctoral program and you three, with your fascinating discussions, makes my brain feel actually engaged, fed, and excited. Excellent discussion, all of you! Lovely to see different points of view coming together to discuss such tough and fascinating ideas.
François Léveillé 8 aylar önce
I feel the exact same way! Thanks for your comment, I feel a little less alone ;)
Joe Day 7 aylar önce
What a sad commentary it is that you are in a doctoral program, yet starving for intellectual stimulation. This is why Frank Zappa said, if you want an education, go to the library. If you want to get laid, go to college.
Conq 7 aylar önce
Yup sounds like a typical university
P Cochran 23 gün önce
We live in amazing and confusing times, when we pay big $$$ for a piece of paper that doesn’t necessarily provide what we thought it represented, but we can find world class discussions of serious topic for free.
Isa Qureshi 8 aylar önce
This is just brilliant. Thank you gentlemen. I have been losing my faith of late and this thoughtful conversation amongst three incredible people may be restoring much more than that in me
Steve scuba 7 aylar önce
I came to believe in God about a year ago. It became clear to me that humans have always been searching for truth, and that truth always seems to point toward goodness. John 8:32, John 14:6, psalm 51:6, John 1:1.... All these speak to our desire to know the Truth, which I believe to be the fundamental aspect of humanity. One either seeks the truth, or avoids it all costs, those that seek the truth are humble, practice kindness, and see the obviousness that there is some kind of spiritual force for good. Those who avoid truth, tend to be self-centered, callous, and cold. I came to realize that one believes in Goodness, or God, or one is evil...or inspired by the devil
Kitty BooBoo 5 aylar önce
Why lose Faith? I believe God formed the Universe through Naturalist means. I love God and I accept Science.
Nikos Antikythera 28 gün önce
I think there's nothing contrary to faith by doubting or losing it in part, or even altogether. The true ongoing struggle is essential to the gradual deepening of faith (as opposed to "prelest"), including even simply the desire for it. The rejecting of it, as we engage with the world that too often destabilizes us and creates doubt within us, is quite frequently temporary. Hopefully, when we return to our faith again, we rediscover that this is where the light (the "uncreated light") actually resides alongside truth. To have faith, and then believe or be convinced that one is safely, easily, and permanently "locked in" to an unassailable place, that is, to a strictly intellectual, rational, relationship with the transcendent that can never be doubted or assailed or deconstructed is the mistake and the illusion. The transcendent exists. Christ is the perfection we seek but can never completely reach, which doesn't invalidate the necessity of the ongoing struggle toward him. ☦
John Owens 8 aylar önce
When you see Jonathan looking around, listening and talking, you can see how much he enjoys these talks. Murray gives the challenge and Jordan is in heaven. We are truly privileged to witness this conversation.
John Owens 8 aylar önce
@Barton Lee that is extraordinary since he referred to a book written in 2022 in the video. Time travel perhaps? "Fled" is not what you do by driving to an airport and sitting on a flight. Your multiple comments about "Russia" and "addiction" would indicate obsession. Get help for yourself.
Madeline Owen 8 aylar önce
The aesthetics of this video are on point whoever was in charge of that ✨🙌
iphang-ishor david 8 aylar önce
@Barton Lee now this is a false narrative 😅😅
Lord Wolfen Sirius 8 aylar önce
@Barton Lee So he can't have problems or what lmao ,
Alex Huntly Highlander 8 aylar önce
@Barton Lee the comment you are replying to is about Jonathan Pageau. Who is this “he” you refer to? There has been zero discussion about drug addiction in these comments nor in the video until you bring it up… makes me wonder as to who is this “he” you are referring to? Happy politicking.
Arivindharan Balakrishnan 6 aylar önce
Pageau's full smile can uplift anyone's mood
Náufrago 2 gün önce
I actualy saw Jonathan in one of my latest psilocybin trips. Out of nowhere, his face with that wide smile, and I came to realize in that moment how much of God's grace Jonathan has in his smile... That's rather a weird comment, I know
Phyllis Martin 4 aylar önce
Greetings from Salamanca, Spain. Oh my goodness! What an incredible conversation between three extremely THOUGHTFUL, articulate and educated men. I enjoyed this video immensely and I know I will listen to this conversation many more times to come. Gob bless and protect you all. Be well!
Flavius Zarculea Aylar önce
This is in all honesty the best and highest level of discussion on multiple levels that I heard in my entire Life. Thank you Jordan, Jonathan and Douglas! You have my absolute respect 🙏
Sweetz Redding 4 aylar önce
1:11 a mother sees and feels this kind of surreal, beyond miraculous love when her newborn is placed into her arms for the very first time. It's a moment of love like no other.
jed wightman 7 aylar önce
I’ve listen to this five times I keep reverting back to it because it is such a powerful conversation. May I suggest a part two between the three of you gentlemen sometime in the future. Thank you again all of you for your work and your light in the dark.
Andrew Nyibiam 8 aylar önce
The way Jordan recognizes and respects Jonathan's wisdom is so beautiful to watch. Douglas was a brilliant guest and posed all the right questions.
Ruth Anne Amsden 8 aylar önce
Douglas is on a beautiful journey and we are privileged to be along for the ride. He couldn’t have better traveling companions.
ABEKMONY 8 aylar önce
You mean the way he cuts Jonathan off constantly and proceeds to talk just to hear himself talk? lol
Saim Bhat 8 aylar önce
They are all rhetoricians, obviously. Nothing they said is even the accepted creed and doctrine of single church in the world. They are just trying to invent a religious metaphysical basis for the current Christian conservative worldview, which they all like and admire for its outcomes and not for its beliefs. Basically, at best jordan peterson is ready to call all religious stories as mere stories written by ancient hebrew psychologists who somehow knew jungian psychoanalysis. None of them is a true christian, you know it, I know it(Even though I am a muslim) and every christian theologian of every church knows it. They have good intentions in the sense that they want to save people from nihilism and skepticism that comes from modernity. But their attempt is not genuine nor true. Nobody believes in religion for rational reasons, no matter how much jordan peterson tries to REINVENT AND REINTERPRET AND REVISIT religion. Religious belief doesn't start from rationality nor rationalizations. Nobody will stop having intercourse before marriage or outside marriage because of "the weird fictional true" rationalization forbids it. People do that only if the hell and heaven are true, so true that the fear of hell and the want of heaven should direct your actions. The miracles of prophet jesus (PBUH) were not stories mr. jordan peterson, if they were stories, the belief in them becomes optional. If all religion is PRAGMATIC AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY useful fictions, then why should it have authority ? Why can't everyone be free to make his own fictions, which might be more pragmatic and psychologically useful ? If the pragmatic and psychologically useful fictions of a social justice/mystic leftist group provides them more moral certainty and lessens then existential angst, then why should they believe in your rationalizations ? And then there is more to say about psychoanalytic justifications for your beliefs. Psychoanalysis is in itself a pseudo-scientific endeavor and is just a reading of effects of cultural/social/material life on human thinking, not a discovery of true human nature. You cannot erect your new religion from a pseudoscience. The Christianity of st. Augustin, st. peter, st. thomas aquinas and martin luther king is THE CHRISTIANITY. What you people are doing is just making a new religion out of thin air for "pragmatic" reasons. And trying to become NEW PROPHETS OF IT. The virgin birth is true, in literal sense, and I bear witness to its truth.
ABEKMONY 8 aylar önce
@Saim Bhat you’re envy is showing.
Saim Bhat 8 aylar önce
@ABEKMONY See, your personal attacks don't convey much.
Peter O'Reilly 5 aylar önce
Thank you all three for a brilliant discussion. I learn more about myself listening to you all.
matt hobbs 6 aylar önce
Time for a part 2 of this discussion!
Steven Meinking 8 aylar önce
That insight at 1:01:57 - "Is there anything more real than pain?...The Meaning that overcomes pain is more real than the pain and that's actually what meaning is." Pure gold.
Darryl Elam 6 aylar önce
Yet meaning does not need to come with pain. Its not 'pure gold' its word salad. It sounds deep yet it means nothing.
Daniel Galvez 6 aylar önce
@Darryl Elam @Darryl Elam I dont know how you can say its word salad and that it means nothing. Genuine people dont do or say things that mean nothing. They aren't just making this stuff up. I almost want to say that youre just making stuff up when you say, "Yet meaning does not need to come with pain", but I think I know what youre saying, and its not meaningless, you just misunderstand what they were saying. I replied to your comment on my comment thread, and coming from that, it seems to me you simply dont have the full context, you dont understand what they are actually saying. If you did understand, and you still disagreed, that doesnt then mean that what they said was meaningless word salad, it could just mean that what they said was wrong.
Darryl Elam 6 aylar önce
@Daniel Galvez "Genuine people dont do or say things that mean nothing." And they aren't genuine people, what part of that aren't you understanding? "you just misunderstand what they were saying" Nope, pain is NOT part of meaning, what they said was not only pointless but F'ing stupid. Things are ether real or not real, there is no such thing as 'more real'. Meaning that doesn't come with pain is just as real as meaning that comes with pain. Meaning has NOTHING to do with pain. Meaning definition Noun: what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action. adjective: intended to communicate something that is not directly expressed. Notice how pain it NOT part of that. Overcoming pain dos NOT make what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action more real. Not having to overcome pain does NOT make a meaning less real. Its the same level of real. This is nothing but word salad meant to convince you that they are really smart people when in truth they have nothing of value to say. They do that because that's how they make their money, its a con job to get you to buy his books, 23 of them and/or support him financially in other ways.
Daniel Galvez 6 aylar önce
@Darryl Elam Why dont you think they are genuine people? Just because they sell books? I hope not, that'd be ridiculous. They are pretty smart: they are at least above average, its not your IQ that determines whether you're worth listening to it's whether you have anything meaningful to say, whether you're sharing a useful understanding that the listeners lack. And being able to say things concisely as they do in this video is very useful. Its not like they haven't expanded on these ideas in other videos, they have, so these ideas are not meaningless, there is a great deal of context you clearly lack. There are tons of videos where Peterson goes into more detail about these ideas, they are not just empty words. If you disagree with what Peterson has to say in those videos, then fine, you disagree, but they are not empty words deprived of meaning. Besides I dont support him financially at all, most of their listeners dont. And Notice how Google's definition of meaning you pulled has nothing to do with the other way people use meaning, like in the question, "what is the meaning of life." If that google definition was all there was, then that question would be as simple as looking up the definition of the word life. Clearly, they are not using the word "meaning" with that definition you pulled in mind. In this case it is right to say they are using jargon, specialized words that outsiders wouldn't understand.
A C 2 aylar önce
A terrific episode - I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Jordan as always insightful and deep, Douglas Murray razor-sharp & very wise. Jonathan P., relatively new to me, yet a thoughtful man with astute contributions. Thank you gentlemen 🌱
J. S. 6 aylar önce
This conversation was for me one of the most inspiring from you Jordan! (and I have listen to a lot) The combination of the three of you is a perfect match! When Pagaue is talking beautifuly about mysteries of life, Douglas can bring the conversation down to earth in such a interseting way. Can't wait for the next one!
alvareo92 20 gün önce
PogO*
ALSET 8 aylar önce
Jonathan is clearly a genius. I know a lot of people might see him as a third wheel in some sense. To me, he has my full respect. He is thinking well beyond what most people give him credit for. Jonathan, if you see this I want you to know, I see you brother. “Fractals”
triscat 8 aylar önce
@Nah Bohdi I don't know that he is a scholar. I don't think Jonathan would consider himself that. He is an Icon carver. An artist. An Orthodox Christian. A wonderful partner and conduit in these kinds of conversations.
ALSET 8 aylar önce
@triscat Yes, Jonathan is indeed very attentive. Which is why I would strongly agree with you, he is a fantastic conversationalist.
Reformed White Knight 8 aylar önce
I would suggest that Jordan is lucky to have come across Jonathan! I really do believe that Jonathan is helping him!! I believed that from the very beginning they were in touch!
Nancy D 8 aylar önce
@Nah Bohdi You must not know his background. His bachelor's degree is in art, and he has no academic degree in religion or theology. He's well-read but definitely not a scholar. And his perspective is different from JBP's in many important ways.
C Fowler 8 aylar önce
He's not a genius, he's an artist in the true sense of the word. He has the same kind of brain and education as me. He sees very far and deeply into things and he makes conncections and recognises patterns that others don't see but he struggles with the details. And then his knowledge of Orthodoxy provides his style of thinking and perceiving with a rich and solid foundation.
pcdriver 7 aylar önce
Jordan is, very simply, a world treasure.
Jenny McGowin 3 aylar önce
That’s the second time I’ve listened to this conversation. I love you guys! It was so damn interesting! Thank you!
Ernest 10 8 aylar önce
Thanks for putting this conversation together. What a breath of fresh air in a world of banality.
Trev boster 8 aylar önce
I love how Peterson and Pageau slowly scooted closer on the couch over the course of the conversation haha
Shane Henderson 3 aylar önce
Its like the love Jesus had for his deciples.
The Blue Donut 4 aylar önce
I go to church because it gives me a sense of calm and peace, listening to the word gives me a sense of security and sanity. Having a church community, helps me grow, keeps me grounded, accountable for my actions, and incentivizes me to be a better person. Learning good morals, discipline and how to live a better life it’s why I am part of a church and follow tradition, I believe this is very important for everyone so that we stay away from depression and the psychologists. I am grateful to God for this 🙏🏻🙌🏻
Carlos Vargas 8 aylar önce
Douglass was a perfect choice, very good with expressing ideas! And he asks the best questions 👍🏻 another round of these three together would be great!
Lorem Ipsum 8 aylar önce
Did you notice, first he asks "Is Chritianity exhausted force or unexhausted force" and quite soon after that says "one of the revolutions of Christian tradition is that everybody has an intrinsic value"? Can't we derive from the two statements: "Is the idea of people having intrinsic value an exhausted force or not?" I don't know why, but I misspelled the word "intrinsic value" repeatedly "intrinsic meaning". Intrinsic meaning feels to hint at action more than intrinsic value, later feels to imply to something static. Some branches of Judaism see people as co-creators of the world. That line of thinking offers intrinsic meaning as well as value.
ryan fernando 7 aylar önce
I love it when JP talks,it makes you really wanna listen and I'm a bad listener,I got bored really quick and my attention is easily distracted,so I like this about him,somehow he can make you listen without you noticing it,and I ended up finishing the whole video and learning a lot,so thank you for that sir!
L Devon 5 aylar önce
This is it. The conversation I needed to learn from.
Brandon Jones 8 aylar önce
Douglas Murray is brilliant. My first time listening to him, I am finding in myself realizations and self-awareness that I have not yet come across before.
Steven Bolin 2 aylar önce
Have listened to both of you on here and truly love your dedication to the truth and your content. Breaking it down is necessary for today's society. We live in our own little world and have very little understanding of the world at large. If we started to critically think through the " fog", we as a people would transcend our biased belief. That would truly be a miracle!:)
James Farrell 8 aylar önce
I suddenly feel that more things are possible in our culture our world knowing that conversations like this are happening it has lifted my spirits that had been becoming more and more cynical these days and I'm not entirely sure why but I'm grateful
Peace and Joy 7 aylar önce
Maybe because these great minds give us glimpses of the Truth.
BOOTA 8 aylar önce
I can sit and listen to Jordan Peterson all day long. I truly believe he will go down in history as one of the most important Men of our time. God bless you Jordan, and your wonderful family. 🙏👁️
Sean L. 8 aylar önce
Listen up, sunshine... turn off the tube and go clean your room!
Ironknuckle100 8 aylar önce
Ben C I am currently listening to this while working. Your argument is invalid.
Ironknuckle100 8 aylar önce
@Sean L. Will do. Just finished laundry, got the rhoomba out suckering and got the dishes lined up next.
Soli Deo Gloria...!!!!!!! 8 aylar önce
I like all of these people, such a panel.. But they're wrong about proving The Bible.. PROPHECY PROVES THE BIBLE
feeble_stirrings 8 aylar önce
I could listen to these 3 talk for days. What a great conversation.
Paul Monahawk 5 aylar önce
This conversation is literally awesome; it put my hairs on end!
Sarah Parr 8 aylar önce
Thank you. This was amazing synchronicity ~ covering so many areas I’ve been considering this week. Jonathan is such a beautiful person. Brilliant to hear Douglas in dialogue like this. Very inspiring indeed.
Flo McCanuck 4 aylar önce
This ending with a debate on the merits of Warhol's pop art vs Pageau's Orthodox Iconic wood carvings wasn't what I expected. Left me grinning
LIvanchev 8 aylar önce
Fascinating discussion. Douglass had some great questions and points to raise, but I think Jonathan addressed them really well.
Lucas 8 aylar önce
This is such a beautiful conversation. I think the “leap” Jordan and Douglas struggle with is actually having a RELATIONSHIP with the transcendent/divine. It’s not simply about believing, but embodying as Jonathan (and the church) says. If you remain in the sphere of “fiction” and “ethical systems,” you are like an actor that can only study and appreciate acting, but cannot walk out on stage and actually take your part in the play.
Thesteadfast 8 aylar önce
Great comment. Something I'm encountering now. I've always believed but haven't sufficiently stepped on to the stage.
Daniel Lo Presti 8 aylar önce
Agreed, as I similarly commented above. I love listening to this kind of discussion, but in the end, it's not something that can be rationalised, or arrived at by mental gymnastics. Somewhat ironically, they discuss how the (or a) divine or "meta-being" must necessarily exist for anything else to make sense, in order to make any sort of value judgment, and to derive order from the chaos of our universe, but this seems to miss the obvious (to me) conclusion that solely rational thought cannot allow us to comprehend a divine being in a different plane of existence.
Seekfirst Thekingdom 8 aylar önce
They are still blinded by their intellect. Faith is much more than a subject one can study in school. In fact the more ‘knowledge’ one has, the harder or further away from the absolute truth they are obtaining
Emma Shalliker 8 aylar önce
Embody like Mother Teresa who didn't believe in medicine or birth control and thought suffering was a way to heaven? Like that? Pft.
Thesteadfast 8 aylar önce
@Emma Shalliker Claims like that against St. Theresa have been debunked. Cynical people try to tarnish the legacy of good people. Also, Jordan Peterson advocates very strongly for facing suffering as a path to self-improvement. There is a huge difference between telling people to suffer and acknowledging that it is inevitable and the way you face it matters.
Jezza Mobile 4 aylar önce
A privilege to be able to hear such experience & insight shared..
Nobby Nose 8 aylar önce
What an excellent conversation "What will survive of us is love" wow
MargoRana 8 aylar önce
It is difficult to express how much more impactful a conversation like this is compared to the direct messages. More of the former, less of the latter. These conversations are where the solution to our cultural ills lay.
The Pilgrim of Infinity 8 aylar önce
Three of the greatest Western intellectuals of our era. It's a great privilege to be able to listen to this discussion.
Jonathan Hill 8 aylar önce
Please do this again. What an excellent talk. Thank you!
Lifestyle Medicinals 8 aylar önce
In a world full of disarray, disagreement, and distress, this conversation is an oasis for this soul. 3 deep thinkers with different world views, discussing the most core existential questions of life, while maintaining respect and being of equal conversational reciprocity. If conversations like this became commonplace, mankind's progression would be much more meaningful than just simple expansion and "advancement". Without these core meanings, every other pursuit of mankind will be unsustainable. Bravo to these gentlemen 🙏
LithosLivingston 8 aylar önce
It's the work OF the values allowing them to do so. It's the fruit picked directly from the vine.
LithosLivingston 8 aylar önce
*and offered to the other
15 Thoughts 8 aylar önce
Well said
Pamela Pennyworth 8 aylar önce
I love finding that one comment that speaks for me too. 👍
Marre Z 8 aylar önce
What a great conversation! Thank you so much. Your podcast keeps me going and makes me enjoy my boring tasks and commutes.
s♡tb 6 aylar önce
I feel like this conversation fueled my heart, brain and soul.
trynachill 8 aylar önce
This is Jordan in his element. Putting words around the seemingly conflicting but possibly symbiotic relationship between religiosity and science. This is the shit i love to see him speak about. I still watch and sometimes appreciate his political commentary and occasionally incendiary tweets, but this is really where he shines and i think should keep his focus on in terms of content topics.
Carrie B. 7 aylar önce
Absolutely beautiful. Yes, we should do this again. Brilliant, gentlemen. Thank you.
Judy 3 aylar önce
Great and insightful discussion by three great minds. I enjoyed it very much.
Jonny Schaff 8 aylar önce
Getting married this weekend and baptized into the Orthodox Church this Pascha. God willing. Thank you so much gentleman. I was on a very very dark path. Redemption is very real to me now thanks to these holy ideas. I have nothing but love and admiration for you men and all your difficult and courageous work. Please keep moving forward with zeal.
Reformed White Knight 8 aylar önce
What was so dark, if I (we) may ask? And how did you come to Christ? Just learning! ;-)
BrotherhoodWorkshop 8 aylar önce
Good on you bro! Always great to hear people on a good path.
blumusik 8 aylar önce
Congratulations on your marriage and journey of faith.
Elder Millennial 8 aylar önce
My priest was pointing out how differently Orthodox define “faith” this past Sunday, and it’s an insight that Murray really needs to ponder.
Olga Karpushina 8 aylar önce
Blessings, brother. May your marriage be a truly holy union.
Jake Ross 8 aylar önce
I’m always so grateful that I can be privy to these incredible conversations. I’m also amazed that I can follow them most of the time! Really looking forward to “We who wrestle with God” - Jacob…
Simoné Esterhuizen 7 aylar önce
This was excellent. Many of my questions were answered and new questions came up, it never ends and it shouldn’t.
Alberto Martorana 8 aylar önce
Thank you for this invaluable discussion! I got very deep realizations from it like faith as an antidote to resentment (JBP); a very clarifying concept of art as a participatory experience beyond irony and satire (JP); and DM's assessment on Andy Warhol's only ability to pose questions. As a fine artist, I am profoundly aware of the state of our culture from watching how art became just non-transcendent and uninspiring objects of consumption for the individual totally disconnected of the communal purpose. I'm looking forward to the next conversation. Thank you again.
M P 4 aylar önce
I listened to this while driving home from my weekly visit to my older brother. I loved Douglas’ last statement- maybe that is what we need, something that transcends the natural. I related with Jordan’s comment that we are still living out the scriptures- I feel that in my own life. And I agree with Johnathan that yes, these things really happened.
Dave M 8 aylar önce
These 3 resonate in a perfect harmony. An amazing discussion !
Wayne Bell 8 aylar önce
It’s incredible to me that Dr. Peterson looks even better now than he did before he was sick. Truly incredible.
BOOTA 8 aylar önce
🙏
BeezyRight 8 aylar önce
Money and knowledge
Ruth Anne Amsden 8 aylar önce
He was saying in a podcast with Mikhaila that he feels better than he has in five years, and it shows. He is absolutely glowing.
VeritasIncrebresco 8 aylar önce
Because he's a Boss.
Vash Matrix 8 aylar önce
Lil help: sick with what?
pa navam 4 aylar önce
Blown away at this conversation. Thank you.
Desire Mugova 2 aylar önce
Thank you so much Prof Peterson and your Guests! I think I understand why they are two of your favourite people😀
Kelvin Muriithi 8 aylar önce
Thank you very much for this. Obviously I need to listen to this a few more times, but what a conversation!
Jack 7 aylar önce
Jordan please keep doing live events if you can, I am in the UK and want see you in person, it would mean the world - currently I'm poor, but going to do everything I can to see and watch you live. Thank you for everything that you have done and continue to do.
Fiercely Loving Fathers - Chris White 8 aylar önce
So powerful....thank you gents for doing what you do so beautifully! And a little pause here and there to let the PHENOMENOLOGICAL IMPACT settle in would help take these conversations to the next level. Thank you Thank you.....
Alex Flood 8 aylar önce
As a minister for over 12 years, in a time where one's efforts seem questionable, this conversation brought great reassurance to the value of my chosen pursuits and profession. Thank you.
Josh Patterson 8 aylar önce
Yes but to what end? As you say minister I suppose you are of a Protestant denomination
Heads_together_Crypto 8 aylar önce
Is the resurrection literal?
MeaningOfLife 8 aylar önce
@Heads_together_Crypto very
Andrew Storer 7 aylar önce
Very worth listening to. It's all about what we've lost with the fall of religion and how we can get it back in these highly materialistic and pragmatic times.
jack delaney Aylar önce
This was one of the best, thanks for sharing these insights
Karl Toth 5 aylar önce
One of the thoughts that keeps coming up in conversation lately… “if you can grip something you know it’s real”
Robert Van Epps 5 aylar önce
Just want to say thank you to all that made this talk happen. Past and present. I am now closer to my true self and better in and for this world because of it. Thanks again, Rob
re9is 7 aylar önce
Brilliant conversation! Inspiring, deep and motivating, visions of light, thank you so much! I would like to differ though on one subject, namely ART. Art has it’s own history and it’s own function and in the harsh judgements at the end of the conversation remind me of the disturbing sides of Religion: dogma and judgement. Art holds a space which is free of anything. Free from the material reality if it wants, free to discover and uncover what reality can mean in it’s widest sense. It has a function of moving someone, connecting with someone, opening a part of someone. This is very individual and can also absolutely happen through something ugly, distorted or ambiguous!!! Critical Art is another virtuous path with a compelling history! Art can express the ugly, the aggressive, as a form of relieving yourself from it and can be recognized by others, helping them do the same. Taste is a dangerous little bugger. Just placing a reminder to ‘Entartete Kunst’ (degenerate art) here. And although you were both surely thinking of specific pieces, maybe look at your own frustration and judgement with new curiosity..
0ucantstopme0 8 aylar önce
Jordan laying out the general lessons to be learned (or some of them) from the Bible is just awesome to listen. He's like Beethoven with words; very pleasing to listen to.
Cribeda Dabecri 8 aylar önce
Yes. He is the Beethoven of truthful speach.
Some Dandy 8 aylar önce
Just don't get him started on Pinocchio...and DEFINITELY don't tell him about the remake!
Duncan Mugambi 8 aylar önce
@Some Dandy So true! How do we hide the remake info from Jordan? He is going to flip when he finds what they did to it
Ginger 8 aylar önce
I wish I knew all he knows and could communicate half as well.
Some Dandy 8 aylar önce
Sen Dog This line belongs in an epic anime battle.
JoMo Mo 6 aylar önce
thankyou for this mind expanding discussion! As an artist who is interested in the bigger perspectives/feeling of what is connecting us all, as opposed to ironic catch phrases, this was really interesting.
That Time Stamp Guy 7 aylar önce
3:18 Douglas Murray 3:48 Johnathan Pageau 5:20 Fell into new atheism 6:44 Can a society continue to survive in its form if it cut itself off from what gave it birth? 11:50 Science, Religion, like in kind. 12:36 Enacted Mode of Being 14:55 Why You Need A Uniting Principle 1. Positive Hope 2. - Confusion Disarray 15:58 Mechanical ⚙️ 17:50 Chain of Belief 19:48 Saw it was Good 20:58 Death of God 💀 🪦 24:04 Where do Values come from? 26:53 Why do we think people are The Same? 28:20 Are we beings with value? 29:48 Created in the image of God 30:44 Monotheism Why do anything? 32:54 What should be in The Divine Place? 34:56 Deepest Truth 36:02 Events Happen in A Meta Manner? 37:13 Causal, Pattern, Source of Reality 38:28 Implicit In The Order 40:08 41:05 It’s Different 42:29 The Passion: Death, Death, Death 43:44 Confronting Hell 44:43 Courage Life would radically transform if everyone was responsible 46:24 Fear, Desperation 47:33 Underlying Good 49:32 Redemption Beyond Time 53:35 Orienting Toward Love 55:15 You can’t reduce Jesus, it leaves it mysterious 56:58 Sacrifice 59:16 Non-Believers Problem 1:02:17 • Engaging • Engrossing • Actives Positive Enthusiasm 1:04:05 Phenomina 1:04:54 😊Meaning is necessary for Living 1:06:36 Love counters Suffering 1:08:15 Leninism cheapened 1:09:00 Love Gets You Through The Eternal Inside The Finite 1:12:19 A Love That Survives Death ☠️ 💗 1:13:47 1:14:43 The Beauty Out of Reach It’s Embodiment It’s Practice It’s Worship Gratitude 1:16:36 Source of Life 1:17:06 Practice Makes Perfect Sin - Missing The Mark 1:20:37 Given Up The Beauty, replaced with Banal 1:23:33 Ancient Liturgy 1:25:45 Return to Galilee 1:27:47 Reductio vs The One Holy 1:29:08 Caricature vs Participative Celebration 1:31:14 Basic Questions
Asara 7 aylar önce
Thank you
Andrew Rivett 8 aylar önce
We speak of gratitude. I am grateful to be able to listen and watch this on my computer and think about faith and truth and how to get to a higher place.
Dan Fox 7 aylar önce
Dear lord... this was an amazing conversation. I could feel Murray's frustration with his fundamental questions and the passion with which all three of you fundamentally agreed yet differed in your approaches at the same time. And the profoundness of the questions... My brain feels as if it's melted into a puddle at the moment.
Sarah Laslett 4 aylar önce
I feel Jordan sees the Judeo Christian faith as an important if not the most important philosophy there has as yet been on the basis of the good influence it has had. The conversation is very complex but at times gives the impression of three people in a fairly dark room not quite able to see what they're looking for. I am reminded of verses from the the gospel of John. "In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the word was God and without Him was not anything made that was made" A statement that encompasses everything. The most crucial thing is not so much our various opinions and insights and ideas about the subject of God but the decision as to whether we will or won't surrender our so called right to ourselves and give our lives back to God from they came. I'm not sure if that is a settled issue in Jordans life. I pray so. Yes God gave us minds with which to think and discuss but He came not just to offer an excellent philosophy and illustration but through Christ to have His very life living within us. It is important to remember that God's wisdom transcends ours and as scripture puts it :"in your light we see light".
Stuart Menzies Farrant 3 aylar önce
Amen.
jmcsween90 8 aylar önce
Excellent conversation. Always interesting to listen to these three very intelligent men, and to hear them in this three way discussion is especially insightful. I would love if Jordan Peterson had Karen Armstrong on his podcast. That would be a fascinating interaction too as her studies on religion are among the best out there.
Paul Copestake 8 aylar önce
It's a blessing that we are able to listen to great conversations like this.
Momma Lou's Kitchen 8 aylar önce
Agreeed
Luke Hart 8 aylar önce
listening to their point of views about education; coming from someone that's not educated, or have good knowledge, makes me feel bad as person cause l'm doing cleaning a job, and l'm not educating myself...but off topic, but, l'm blessed as well man
Cletus Wyns 8 aylar önce
Sen Dog well said
Lynn Leech 8 aylar önce
@Luke Hart you are participating where you are- much more intelligent than those educated and doing nothing with it.
JoshBoston 8 aylar önce
Sen Dog ---How do you know that good art discovers patterns beyond the physical. What does that even mean? Show me something that is "beyond physical". What evidence do you have apart from saying that art discovers it? Then you come up with some new definition for God that I've never heard of and finally you give us some false dichotomy by giving us a choice between two made up concepts. Sorry, but what a word salad this is.
Andrew Gable 8 aylar önce
Spot on. Great fuel for thought. Gentlemen, thank you!!!
Philip Crouch 4 aylar önce
Good discussion. It reminds me of being a young graduate at the pub with good intellectual company. :)
Svibor Gamulin 8 aylar önce
Brilliant and deeply meaningful exchange of ideas!
Lokipower 8 aylar önce
This is so interesting, hopefully we get more.
Matthew Kay 8 aylar önce
Thank you gentlemen. Pageau deserves so much more attention. I do find all of life to be circling around a drain hole but each orbit I call out to Christ. Praying for you.
Ruth Anne Amsden 8 aylar önce
I don’t think we have ever seen Dr. Peterson so well and so healthy. The last time he talked to Douglas Murray, he looked to be so ill and in so much pain that he could barely get his breath to speak. I hurt for and with him. It is so good to see him now without layer upon layer of pain on his face. It’s as though something deep healed, not just in his body, but in his spirit. It is so good.
William Auld 8 aylar önce
Lovely comment with truly good sentiment.
triscat 8 aylar önce
Yes. That was a very painful time to witness. It's amazing Jordan even put himself out there during that period. Many of us have been praying dearly and daily for him.
John Gatti 8 aylar önce
God gave Jordan his Job moment.
Ruth Anne Amsden 8 aylar önce
@triscat we are seeing miraculous answers to prayers and it is a beautiful thing. We are truly thankful.
Murray McGregor 8 aylar önce
I praise the carnivore diet! It too has helped me after 7 years of suffering bloating, pain nad brain fog from irritable bowel syndrome. I have finally reached a level of focus that enables me to be the best I can be.
DanGame168 8 aylar önce
Will Pageau ever get the props he deserves? Dude is a powerful genius.
A F 7 aylar önce
Not much genius, just lots of talking around direct questions. A genius at talking, maybe.
DanGame168 7 aylar önce
@A F okay
Gavin la Grange 6 aylar önce
Thankyou to these three brilliant men for this.
Brandon Caddow-Young 7 aylar önce
Great conversation. Great questions from Douglas.
SW 8 aylar önce
After listening to that; I feel that I can , on some level , relate to that Wittgenstein student. You three are probably too modest to allow me to put your names into such an analogy , but from my perspective (relative to my own intelligence / understanding) that discussion was utterly magnificent. What I mean to say is; I'm in awe at the level upon which the discussion took place and I'm thankful to be fortunate enough to be able to listen to it and enjoy it. Thank you.
Daniel Galvez 7 aylar önce
I cannot believe they are able to speak at such a high level, with such density of thought so efficiently. I would need to go so slowly and so much clarification that this conversation would take something like 40 hours to get through.
Darryl Elam 6 aylar önce
Its word salad thats all.
Daniel Galvez 6 aylar önce
@Darryl Elam Either you're using the term word salad in a way I'm unfamiliar with, or I would disagree that's its word salad. Its certainly not unintelligible. You could say they are speaking in jargon, but that's not exactly right, they are going back and forth with abstract ideas rather than diving deep and making the ideas clearer. I see that as, they are familiar with the ideas, to the extent that simply stating one builds on the previous one and everyone in the room knows the full context, no need to deep dive. So like the general ideas are the jargon, and in order to fully understand them you would need to dive deep in explanation and picking every possible hole to make sure you have the whole clear picture, whereas here they all already know the whole discussion to be had on each general idea, so there's no need to spend extra time on clearing things up. It makes the conversation go a lot faster, you can really get to the point of things and really advance the conversation toward frontiers like that.
Darryl Elam 6 aylar önce
@Daniel Galvez No I am using it right. He put together a whole lot of words that don't actual mean anything. It just sounds intelligent. Its nothing but a word salad.
Marie Spinosa 8 aylar önce
Thank you to the three of you. Wonderful conversation. So grateful to live in a time that I can listen to intelligent educated men at my leisure.
Earthborn Alien 4 aylar önce
Excellent it nearly makes me consider setting aside my prejudices and actually attending church or at least giving it another try
O Hanberg 7 aylar önce
I love how Douglas is constantly encouraging Jonathan and Jordan to stay in touch with reality.
Sukhbir Sekhon 6 aylar önce
I find it always helps to stay in touch with reality. Somehow don't need anybody to tell me
iphang-ishor david 6 aylar önce
Jonathan is in Touch with reality... but I don't think Jordan is... he not answering the simple question Douglas is asking.
iphang-ishor david 6 aylar önce
The way I see it... Jonathan is Clearly not a Materialist, he doesn't believe everything starts and ends with the natural world, Jordan on the other hand is still very much a materialist at least to a large extent in my estimation and is using too many explanation to hid it
HZ JC 6 aylar önce
@O Hanberg: Christians are realistic. No contrary to believing in triune God. Douglas / no one cannot be the sole judge of reality. God is.
Elisha Cleal 8 aylar önce
Amazing discussion. Thank you so much.
Dana Towne 7 aylar önce
The word that was running through my head as soon as this conversation was fully formed finally showed up at about 1:16. Gratitude. The dichotomy between gratitude and ingratitude (blatant ego, imo) is what much of (modern, but probably all ) human life boils down to, I think.
Byron Crouch 8 aylar önce
Thank you very much for having this conversation and sharing it with the world. I do not know if it would fit for either of your schedules but I would really enjoy seeing you having a conversation with John Lennox. He has been a speaker on this topic of religion and science for quite a long time and I think you would greatly enjoy his story. Thank you again.
Tom Dixon 8 aylar önce
When I hear this talk, I realize how accurate it is to see JBP as the great seeker. My hope is that by the end of this decade Canada 🍁 will have a different government and, probably over his objections, nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize in Humanities. This superstar will be honored for his contribution to a better human condition. We have all benefited. ❤
axidhaus 8 aylar önce
Justin Timberfake has got to go
chris gemmill 8 aylar önce
@axidhaus lol are purposefully using the wrong name??
Kevin Reed 8 aylar önce
@chris gemmill Not sure if you misunderstood, but I'm pretty sure that it's a barely disguised derogatory name for Justin Trudeau, not a criticism leveled against any of the men in this video.
axidhaus 8 aylar önce
@chris gemmillJustin Turdeau
kellyeab 8 aylar önce
I agree, once the PC party loses Poilievre on or before the end of this decade we will be in a better position to have a change in government. In the mean time it looks like the Liberals will likely win the next election in 2025 and govern until 2029. Let's hope by that time that a good Conservation leader comes forward.
matthew kanczes 5 aylar önce
Jordan, the way I see it is that the only thing more real than pain would be love. Suffering and real pain can be dealt with most readily by the use of real love. What intriguing conversations you have. Fantastic and thank you. Matt Kanczes
KodokanShiai 2 aylar önce
I grew up going to a Lutheran church as a kid with my grandmother who was the only one in my family that took religion seriously. I’ve been very interested in it as a young age but as I started growing older and wiser I would often have many questions during my confirmation. My entire life it was shown to me that religion is about faith and belief in the literal sense, I was never taught any philosophy by Christianity what so ever. During my last year during confirmation as I was really fed up with Christianity as I had been doing my own research for a long time now we had a new pastor from the Virgin Islands begin to teach us. He took my questioning extremely seriously and for the first time in my life validated it, HARD. When I explained to him the ridiculousness held in the belief of Noah’s Ark he agreed with me and explained that maybe it was not supposed to be taken literal, but as a metaphor. During that time I was extremely interested in Buddhism as there was not any scientific disputes in the religion, and it didn’t involve god. He handed me Siddhartha right away and told me to read. He explained that religion is like languages , although different they serve the same purpose , and he was grateful for my history with the church as he believed you must start with one language in order to learn the rest.Siddhartha opened up my mind to the idea of spirituality and being bettered through religion and ego death became my main goal. After years of spiritual practice and meditation I believe I achieved the first stage of (enlightenment) and it caused me to fall out of the religion. When your ego begins to die you do have the illusion of killing suffering as you begin to realize that life has no meaning. I now believe after found through a very difficult time with that realization that the ego is an extremely important part of the human experience and Christianity if taken philosophically can do an awesome job at balancing it
Mandy Childs 8 aylar önce
Their willingness to explore the questions that most would run from was enlightnening.Thank you.
Lunar Vandross 8 aylar önce
Fantastic. There were at least three reasons for me to have faith which I saw first here. Thank you gentlemen.
Jason Williams 8 aylar önce
This may be the best religious conversation I've ever heard.
bluroguevyse08 8 aylar önce
Always excited to see Murray on anyone’s show.
Kendal 8 aylar önce
Me too!!!! Same with Greg Lukianoff as well
Jo Blower 8 aylar önce
extremely stimulating discussion, thanks for all your thoughts
Kris Staton 8 aylar önce
Damn. You gentlemen are brilliant. Thank you for what you do, and talk about!
Lucas van Laar 8 aylar önce
As a consequence of following Jordan, I like his forthright nature and laser focus on issues, I have just started to read Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. As for religion it has played a fundamental role in many societies for moral and ethical behaviours, a role which today has reached it's use by date. The whole issue is very complex but can be simplified as Buddha did with his 8 fold path as a model for living.
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