My New Genetic Algorithm Learned the Backhand Form! [DISC GOLF]

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Sketches For Humanity

Sketches For Humanity

Gün önce

YORUMLAR: 411
John Ingram
John Ingram 2 aylar önce
"I finally ran out of ways to fail" made me literally spit out my soup. I'm a programmer. I get it.
John Ingram
John Ingram Aylar önce
@Komputes I shouldn't be surprised by that. I love that channel and I've seen all his videos. I don't know why I didn't catch that. However, this time it really did make me spit out my soup.
John Favaloro Jr.
John Favaloro Jr. Aylar önce
Stackoverflow has your back 😂
Komputes
Komputes Aylar önce
@Rabusu I deeply apologize for it not being vervain even though it wasn’t a quote, I should know better and my actions are withheld accountable by me.
Rabusu
Rabusu Aylar önce
​@Komputes You can't say that a saying was stolen just because someone already said it. Edit: I checked "Automatic pool stick vs. strangers" by "Stuff Made Here" time 9:21 and he said "you run out of stuff that can be wrong" which is completely different from "I finally ran out of ways to fail".
Andreas Prestby
Andreas Prestby Aylar önce
@Komputes wow...
techvette
techvette 2 aylar önce
I've been programming professionally for 27 years. We're all terrible at it. Awesome work!
Robert Engelbrecht
Robert Engelbrecht 2 aylar önce
I think adding at least the same weight to the left arm will start to show some changes. Of course adding the proper length and weight to the left arm will be better as there are very complex angular velocities at play . . as you know :)
Laurie Dening
Laurie Dening Aylar önce
@Chris Davies Gino’s comment could be interpreted as - it would be interesting to see how the genetic algorithm changes, if it changes, if the model In the simulation had the left arm weighted the same as the right-even without joints, vice interpreting it as a comment of how throws could be different if the left arm was weighted more than the right.
Chris Davies
Chris Davies Aylar önce
Sorry, but no. The left arm is tucked in tight to the body as the counterrotation of the torso ends, and the torso begins rotating right. Adding weight to the off hand would slow down the rate at which it is launched outwards and upwards after the disc release, to remove all the rotation created in the body by the throwing motion itself. If carrying weights in the off hand resulted in longer throws, then professionals would already be holding weights in the off hand. Can you see that?
ZUCChinishrIMP
ZUCChinishrIMP 2 aylar önce
@Tino Kaartovuori the left hand/arm is actually pretty important in right hand throwing! Some extra angular momentum
lavertable
lavertable 2 aylar önce
This is a great form for 1 arm players to copy for stand-still throws.
Tino Kaartovuori
Tino Kaartovuori 2 aylar önce
This would be interesting to see, does it throw further with more mass on the off hand
Branson Smith
Branson Smith 2 aylar önce
Very interesting video. This thing is about to BLOW UP. I'm a software developer and disc golfer, and this kind of devlog is awesome! I love your visuals, script, and edits. Thank you for taking the time to put together and polish this great summary of your findings. Great work!
Joshua van Overeem
Joshua van Overeem 2 aylar önce
I would love to see a comparison of this “ideal form” and the form of various pro players using motion capture
Trema Gon
Trema Gon Aylar önce
I think theres a video on Ezra aderhold's channel where they do that
Chris Davies
Chris Davies Aylar önce
This is not ideal form. Ideal form requires the torso to actually rotate backwards, (left) and then forward (right).
Maximilian Berkmann
Maximilian Berkmann 2 aylar önce
Absolutely, once the left arm and hips are added.
Jose Martin
Jose Martin 2 aylar önce
Besides the recommendation to completely model the left arm, I would recommend increasing the rigidity between the torso and the shoulders as well as the rigidity of the wrist. If possible, adjust the attachment point of the disc to the center of the hand segment. Lastly, consider setting a maximum angle for the elbow and shoulder joints I want to build a disc throwing machine and have spent a fair amount of time running thru iterations in my mind. Best of luck and i look forward to seeing more analyses like this.
Danny Lindahl
Danny Lindahl 2 aylar önce
This is really interesting! It looks very similar to the form of a lot of our taller players. It reminds me a lot of James Conrad or Kyle Klein. I wonder if you shortened the levers if a wider reachback becomes more advantageous? Thanks for all your work! Edit Re. 90 degrees: I'm learning that the 90 degree shoulder should be more a result of timing rather than rigidity. You'll see a lot of top players like GG leverage their body in a way that causes that shoulder to open up (quite a bit in his case) and add leverage to the throw. But most amateurs that do it are just pulling with their back muscles and that ends up causing a bunch of other issues. The best way to think of it is to try to swing everything together. As long as in the power pocket, the shoulder is relatively close to 90 degrees, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Chris Davies
Chris Davies Aylar önce
Hi Danny, opening the shoulder in the smash results in the right shoulder never moving backwards along the line of play. The effectiveness of Spin & Throw form is due to the way the shoulder stays locked, and the shoulder therefore pulls the right arm backwards, creating the REAL whip. No whip can operate without the handle being pulled backwards after it comes to a stop - yeah? Opening the shoulder early, results in the arm going forward before the shoulder moves backwards, and this not only ruins the timing of the release, and its location, but it removes the whip effect. I am 57 years old now, and using S&T to throw a lot further than I was able to throw using what I now call "Poke and Pull". I am almost ashamed of inventing the Mobius Line Puller which prevents rounding. It yields a very accurate, but very low power throw which relies on athletic ability and strength, rather than form and timing. Real rounding is by far the most powerful (and natural!) form, but only if the disc swings and accelerates throughout the throwing motion.
Sketches For Humanity
Sketches For Humanity 2 aylar önce
Thanks for the insights, Danny! Your videos have helped me a lot along the way :) I'm not a tall guy, so the levers are actually not that long in these simulations (the joint lengths are based on my body). But I do now have many new ideas on how to improve the system, so we'll hopefully see some improvements on it eventually!
Youhoney
Youhoney 2 aylar önce
Absolutely fascinating and so inspiring to see how you tackled something you hadn't done before. I would imagine there were like minded disc golfers out there who would want to contribute to this kind of work. I don't have the programming expertise myself but just seeing you go about building this makes me want to start learning. Thanks for the awesome video again, can't wait for the next one. 10/10 jatkoon!
Stephen Mario
Stephen Mario 2 aylar önce
Crowdfund a project to motion capture Drew, Kristin, Paige, Paul, and other pros. Get them in the Green Man suits and capture from all sides. Your original video regarding this really had me rethinking my ever improving (changing anyway) form. Thanks.
Trema Gon
Trema Gon Aylar önce
I think there is a video of ezra aderhold getting a 3d motion capture of his form
EsbenT
EsbenT 2 aylar önce
Taking on a huge task with little to no prior knowledge? Classic example of the human spirit. Well done 👍
MrGarviainen
MrGarviainen 2 aylar önce
So promising! Please continue your work on this! Might really move the whole sport forwards! Could you add: - Proper range of motion for different joints - The stifness of joints as they approach their "limits" - The power of muscles is a function of the joints angle - Proper goal for the algorithm (you mention this even yourself), not just the velocity but also spin. Then of coures things would get infinitely more difficult if you would move to proper 3D and be able to include, throw angles (hyzer vs. anhyzer), nose angles, the direction of the speed vector etc etc...! With a model like that it would be SO interesting to see how it handles differing disc stabilities and speeds, different wind conditions, elevations, hitting different lines.. Could you solve disc golf!?!?
Todd Mowen
Todd Mowen 2 aylar önce
The off-arm is interesting. It kind of looks similar to how Double G throws. Off-arm pushing away from his body... Great video!
Robert Engelbrecht
Robert Engelbrecht 2 aylar önce
Excellent job ! you have such a contagious curiosity for knowledge :)
Sketches For Humanity
Sketches For Humanity 2 aylar önce
Thanks, Robert! Yeah, I tend to fall pretty deep into these rabbit holes :) It's always so rewarding in the end!
Chris Lenear
Chris Lenear 2 aylar önce
This is really great work! I love your journey to get here. I am wondering how you are measuring "strength" in the joint. I feel like using the mass-spring-damper system would be a great method to simulate muscle tension. The spring could even be used between the two arms (along the back) to replicate the muscle tension developed between the scapula when both arms move towards midline. Also, in terms of the torso-to-shoulder joint angles, it makes a lot of sense that the shoulder is pushed more anteriorly since all the pros seem to protract their scapula a lot during the pull-through (resulting in the angle from the sternoclavicular joint to the acromioclavicular joint at the shoulder being more acute). As someone who trained in engineering and physical therapy, I find this interface between the human body and computer simulations to be very fascinating. Lastly, do you think that replacing the reach back with having the arm in a pre-set position to begin the throw could minimize the variability and possibly correct the wrist angle?
Sketches For Humanity
Sketches For Humanity 2 aylar önce
Thanks for the well thought out comment! I did think about a pre-set starting pose, but I wanted the algorithm to be able to do what it wants. I already have many other ideas how to make the simulation represent the real world a bit better, though, so there's definitely a lot to test when I come back to this :)
connorkapooh
connorkapooh 2 aylar önce
As far as I can tell you have no other real content on Genetic Algorithms - this is the first video of you that I've watched & I can see the very clear quality in your work. As somebody coming from a DL background I can see that you clearly have the knowhow and curiosity that drives an excellent project such as this one, this has really inspired me to go and try out some stuff on my own. I would love to see some more content with this sort of stuff!
Hunter Bancroft
Hunter Bancroft 2 aylar önce
I think once you reintroduce force at release (hand gripping the disc) instead of just a timed release you will see the correct hand position. The disc ripping out of the hand instantaneously is probably going to be the hardest part for the algorithm to figure out
Sketches For Humanity
Sketches For Humanity 2 aylar önce
Yep, the hand/disc interaction is super complex, and this kind of gross simplification can't capture it all that well. That being said, I do have some ideas I need to test :)
JoBrew32
JoBrew32 2 aylar önce
Awesome video! That’s really cool to see. You mentioned unity not taking the spin of the disc into account too much. How does unity handle the flight of the disc without spin? Do the discs ‘fly’ or are they just sort of ‘chucked’? Really cool video!
Jack Minnick
Jack Minnick 2 aylar önce
Since the values are somewhat optimized now for each joint velocity, it might be beneficial to switch back to force threshold based releases. Some of the reaching behind and rounding seen was likely due to the simulations exploitation of the guarantee that the disc will come out at the same time during each simulation. With force threshold releases, more direct and quickly applied snap would have to be created in order for a consistent release, which lends itself to a straight pull through in my opinion.
curtis clack
curtis clack 2 aylar önce
The rounding that the sim does is compensation for not having a hips and not due to an inefficiency. Straight back and forward is not the formula for the most power or spin.
noodle4u20
noodle4u20 2 aylar önce
I feel like inorder to compare the path of the disc through the reach back to human kinetics, the distance between the joints should be wider and slightly back because that movement rotates around the ribcage and not the spine. I watched till the end. Nicely done! Perhaps you and Stuff Made Here could collab and build the disc throwing robot. trshow.info/watch/gnwIiw3Rz3I/video.html Sorry, I don't program at all or I would link his name to the url 😅
Sketches For Humanity
Sketches For Humanity 2 aylar önce
Yeah, it's definitely worth a try! The thing with the force threshold releases is that it seemed to be inherently very unstable, in that the exact same threshold+genes would sometimes produce very different looking releases. It might actually be a good thing if it was small variations, but it seemed to be quite substantial differences, which made the thrower stop developing past a quite rudimentary point. It might be just a limitation of Unity, or some mistake in my code, but yeah, I don't like the timed release either :D I'll have to think about it a bit more.
Jacob Bradshaw
Jacob Bradshaw 2 aylar önce
m.trshow.infoWiz3UeU86Xo I think rounding is the future
Frank Jowitt
Frank Jowitt 2 aylar önce
I’m wondering if it would be possible to have those kinematic sensors (the Hollywood ones I’ve seen look like ping pong balls) to your throwing arm and torso to get some mapping data and convert that into a digital representation of the overall motion. Just a thought. Love the vids, bro.
Manzell Blakeley
Manzell Blakeley 2 aylar önce
I'd like to see this with some traditional flight mechanics included - angle, pitch and yaw of the disc (and thus of the articulating hand)! Also not sure if I missed it but is this "just" force generation, or does it include spin speed when calculating the disc flight?
RJNiemela
RJNiemela 2 aylar önce
First of all, great job! I've been thinking doing something like this when I had time, but start from the hips up after seeing your original video. And I think this is exactly what I expected it to end up in (with the exception of the wrist due to no spin required). All in all, great job! And very interesting thing to follow, keep it up!
Captain Suit
Captain Suit 2 aylar önce
I love seeing your progression! Your content is exactly my kind of nerdy. Thanks for the hard work! I started thinking once you pointed out the fixed center point. Could you move that point in a diagonal line at the same angle as someone's center of mass moves along during a run up (maybe about 30 degrees or so from the desired disc line)? I'm curious if the disc would move along a more similar path to your real throw.
Ayden Smith
Ayden Smith Aylar önce
This is really great. Thank you for making this. The idea of this is intriguing but also kind of scary in a sense, seeing how quickly an artificial intelligence learned to perfect a throw that took us humans quite a while to perfect. Thinking of the possibilities of artificial intelligence to learn and perfect things so much quicker than humans can honestly kind of scares me, but like I said, it's also intriguing. What other studies could this be used for? Could we potentially use a more detailed and realistic model of a human connected to AI to learn the best ways to do stuff? Here's a stupid example of what I'm trying to say. What if we wanted to figure out the best way to jump as high as we possibly can, but didn't want to spend all of the hours studying and perfecting our method? We could just put it into a similar sort of generational and genetic simulation as you did with your backhand form but with a much more powerful computer, and we could copy the way the AI jumps. I'm not sure if anybody understands anything I just said, but basically, AI scares me with how quickly it can learn compared to us. (thanks for reading and sorry for ranting lol)
John Giraldi
John Giraldi 2 aylar önce
Great video about a very interesting application of genetic algorithms. I was wondering if you used a "simulated annealing" approach to avoid local maximum.
Sketches For Humanity
Sketches For Humanity 2 aylar önce
Thanks! I didn't use simulated annealing, this is a quite simple genetic algorithm :) But it seems to do the job surprisingly well! I think the biggest issues right now are related to the mechanics and some other parameters (spin, the hand joint inflexibility, torso movement etc), not so much the genetic algorithm.
Lockert
Lockert 2 aylar önce
Great job! Would be really interesting to see if you could add the amount of spin generated to the disc as a factor, if that changes things 😊
Thomas Berglund
Thomas Berglund 2 aylar önce
Amazing. Loved every minute of it! Looking forward to the next video.
fonkymjuzik
fonkymjuzik 2 aylar önce
Hi, thanks a lot for the interesting analysis. I would have a suggestion: What if you start this optimization process with a much simpler case? For example, you would have only three elements: rotating torso, right shoulder, and right upper arm. Your goal would be to maximize the velocity of the right elbow. If complete, then you could add the forearm and maximize the velocity of the right wrist. And finally, you could add the hand. Of course, the optimal angular velocities in joints would somehow change as you would add the components, but it could be that these changes would be small and you would converge to the optimal form much faster.
Texas VeryOwn
Texas VeryOwn 2 aylar önce
Great video. Thank you for the hard work you put into this test. It was very interesting and entertaining
DailyStrugglesDiscGolf
DailyStrugglesDiscGolf 2 aylar önce
I love the overhead thing you did with your throw, that was really cool to watch. Then it had me thinking of Tony Hawk Pro Skater games. They used some kind of crazy bodysuit on the athletes to record their movements while doing certain trick. I wonder if that would be possible to do in our sport on a elite level with 10 of the best throwers out there, not just the long bomb power shots but also the controlled slower speed shots. It would be awesome to see those results. Thank you for the great video. I can’t wait to get out your next one. God bless.
J'ket
J'ket 2 aylar önce
@DailyStrugglesDiscGolf /watch?v=AG_8tW2eBBc
kc5string
kc5string 2 aylar önce
@DailyStrugglesDiscGolf trshow.info/watch/AG_8tW2eBBc/video.html
DailyStrugglesDiscGolf
DailyStrugglesDiscGolf 2 aylar önce
@Blake Sides where do I find the video?
Blake Sides
Blake Sides 2 aylar önce
This has already been done. Tristan Tanner and Ezra Aderhold did it.
Noel Kerns
Noel Kerns 2 aylar önce
Very interesting, and well done! Look forward to seeing more, especially introducing lower body and weight transfer considerations.
Ausias Prieto Roig
Ausias Prieto Roig 2 aylar önce
Wow dude, that is amazing! I can't foresee what you'll do next, your channel is awesome and I love it, especially on your thoughts on philosophical or mundane things 😄 I understand you said you weren't going to spend too much time into it, but since I myself work on AI, if you were to take this on again I would recommend looking into the CPU based "neat" algorithm library, or if you have a decent GPU and some spare time, "SAC agents" or "Deep Q learning"
Anton Gerdes
Anton Gerdes 2 aylar önce
Man, I love your disc golf videos. Your approach to this is the exact right amount of nerd. I work with genetic algorithms in my daily job so this was very close to home.
Jono
Jono 2 aylar önce
This channel is so cool. I loved the first form video, loved this one too, and now I’m excited there’s another one coming as well! Fantastic video, love the production value.
Axxxxxion
Axxxxxion 2 aylar önce
Really interesting video topic, great execution and fabulous production quality!
Scot Ranney
Scot Ranney 2 aylar önce
Nice job! I love this kind of mad scientist stuff, keep up the great work.
Fissionbomb PMR
Fissionbomb PMR 2 aylar önce
This was an incredible video. I think your simulator is rounding because it pivots in a single point in space. Comparing to your overhead shot, even your standstill has your feet spread apart and full body moving laterally while turning.
Zachary Drake
Zachary Drake Aylar önce
I think you just modeled Matty O's form! Incredible video, I will absolutely be tuning in to further iterations!
Abigor Anathema
Abigor Anathema 2 aylar önce
Yes! More disc golf content from you! Your first video was amazing; this video is amazing... if you can find a way to keep it up, please do. I am super into it.
Chase J
Chase J 2 aylar önce
This was incredible. This is why TRshow is awesome. Can't wait to watch more. Keep up the good work.
Paul Winder
Paul Winder 2 aylar önce
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Your video is very interesting and stimulating. Please keep going. Feels like there’s a breakthrough coming.
Kyle Lambert
Kyle Lambert Aylar önce
I think accounting for rpm in the thrower sim would be pretty helpful - the sim locks the wrist backwards (might be worth not letting it bend more than say, 20 degrees backwards in order to maximize leverage of the second to last 'joint'
Mike Tyler
Mike Tyler 2 aylar önce
I really love how it picked up on the off arm "swim move". I think this is a more common motion among pros than we think, but it's hard to see because many times the off arm doesn't explicitly move backwards, but it does move backwards relative to the torso which is still moving forwards late in the throw. Definitely most obvious in Double G's throw
Sketches For Humanity
Sketches For Humanity 2 aylar önce
Yep! Like in this simulation, the result is the best when it looks like the off arm is completely stationary when it tries to "swim back". That's when the power transfer has worked really well. I think that's why the best irl pro throws don't have a very visible swim move either. They're able to time it so well that it doesn't really end up showing that much.
NorthStateNate88
NorthStateNate88 2 aylar önce
This is the coolest thing ever. Thanks for putting all the hard work in!!
Andrew J Bidlen
Andrew J Bidlen 2 aylar önce
Great idea and execution! Curious to see if you extend this with some of the suggestions in the comments!
Cole Cole
Cole Cole 2 aylar önce
Great work and hope to see more updates on this
Kai Haapasaari
Kai Haapasaari 2 aylar önce
For to say, the simulation seemed to be a nice to see. You can also add an run up to the simulation. Only thing that it does lack is the fact of wind and angle. 🤔 is this open source project? Because I know for sure that many in our company would be interested
Garrett Rose
Garrett Rose 2 aylar önce
I must say the editing, the music, everything about this video was my idea of a perfect video!
Big Bob
Big Bob 2 aylar önce
This is awesome, exactly what i wanted. real values, joint limitations, weight, strength, spin, all would be awesome too see added
La Tienda de Disc Golf Mexico (LATDG)
La Tienda de Disc Golf Mexico (LATDG) 2 aylar önce
That was very very well explained, the whole journey... The left hand stopping part, is definitely an eye opener at my point in Discgolf...🙃
High Action Disc Golf
High Action Disc Golf 2 aylar önce
Your simulation is fascinating! As far as the algorhythm finding the most optimal way to throw the disc, one major difference that I can think of is the use of the legs when a disc golfer throws. With proper form, we generate so much power from our lower body and hips, which the algorhythm of course doesn't have access to, so it's compensating for everything with pure "upper body". Not sure exactly how much that would have to do with it, just my obsevation as a disc golfer and not a programmer. Keep up the good work!
curtis clack
curtis clack 2 aylar önce
@Joshua Choate The sim gets its power from the ground and it is not throwing with just its arm. It is bolted to the ground which simulates perfect legs. All the force it is pulling with is from the sim pushing against the ground.
curtis clack
curtis clack 2 aylar önce
The sim gets its power from the ground and it is not throwing with just its arm. It is bolted to the ground which simulates perfect legs. All the force it is pulling with is from the sim pushing against the ground.
Joshua Choate
Joshua Choate 2 aylar önce
I came to comment the same exact thing. Eloquently put High Action, took the words right out of my mouth!
Riley Stanford
Riley Stanford 2 aylar önce
Interesting ideas and great video. I'm currently working in a biomechanics study and we ran into a similar issue when it comes to constraints. I'm not familiar with the program you're using but I would recommend (if possible) solving for the inverse dynamics of this motion, or by predicting the kinematics of segment/joint angles by the position of the end effector. You'd then be able to apply the anthropometrics of the rigid bodies to the system and get a more accurate prediction of the human motion with particular constraints.
mathyou Becker
mathyou Becker 2 aylar önce
Dude this is so cool!!! I wish Disc Golf Scene would look into something like this! IRL tho Flexibility, grip, and neck turn speed, are major factors.
Matthew Ramsey
Matthew Ramsey 2 aylar önce
The last frame is your throw is very cool! Notice how the straight reach back actually had a more aggressive bend in the curve than the model. Interesting.
Dean Jackman
Dean Jackman 2 aylar önce
I think this is an excellent idea that can act as a concept sketch for someone alot smarter than me to whip up real quick. Lots of biomechanic functions to consider.
Joe Blow
Joe Blow 2 aylar önce
I’m not sure how much you learned about the ideal backhand throw, but it’s not the destination; it’s the journey! You did learn much. I am excited for the future update on your backhand progress. I am not sure why Robert is interested in you doing an analysis of the Ultimate frisbee forehand, though I wouldn’t mind (I was a long time Ultimate player). But it would seem a disc golf forehand analysis would be more appropriate for you.
The AC
The AC 2 aylar önce
Interesting that the "snap" doesn't appear to be represented. Isn't the wrist action one of the most important parts of the throw? Or is that accounted for in another way?
Tsvetan Tsankov
Tsvetan Tsankov 2 aylar önce
GA are awesome, one of my favourite topics. You should play around with the Unity ML agents, try to do the same with neural networks :) Great work!!!
Carl-David Johansson
Carl-David Johansson 2 aylar önce
Thanks for trying. Someone needed to have the stamina to gonthru with this project 😋 Having the torso only fixed in a lower hip joint instead of fixed in a vertical axis would open up a whole new set of findings... but also probably require a lot more pc power. And then adding disc flight characteristics... you would be as grey as I am 😁🙌
Tjcrawford4
Tjcrawford4 2 aylar önce
This is great and I would love to see this taken as far as it can go. I feel as though this is only scratching the surface of possibilities to find the "perfect throw". Maybe there is a golf simulator that's already integrated with a full human body that you can modify to be throwing a disc rather then swinging a club. Idk just a thought, I know ball golf science is way further along then disc golf.
Sipu
Sipu 2 aylar önce
this channel has some one of the best disc-golf content on youtube
justin coleman
justin coleman 2 aylar önce
I knew you were on the right track when I saw your "thrower's" first throw. It wasn't much different from first throws I've seen IRL 😆
Zachary Bunfill
Zachary Bunfill 2 aylar önce
That was so cool! Can’t wait to see what comes of it honestly! Good luck 👍🍀
LiopleurodonJuice
LiopleurodonJuice 2 aylar önce
This was very interesting! Look forward to more videos.
John Norton
John Norton 2 aylar önce
You are my hero today sir. I have done similar projects and could totally relate to you every step of the way.
N. Jay Burr
N. Jay Burr 2 aylar önce
The world needs more people like you to perform experiments and analysis such as this, so thank you! There are so many elements and variables to consider: a team of individuals could surely attempt to capture the rest of the bits required to fully realize your goals. IE: considering hip/lower body twist and related torque, leg strength in pushing forward, the run up and foot speed forward to the disc release point, etc. etc. Great job in understanding the arm and partial torso to disc release, but - there is sooooooo much more involved than that, esp. in a tee-off or run up. Your experiment demonstrates the stand-still release - which is incredible in it's own right - but there is more to it than solely upper body motion to tossing a disc it's maximum distance. Best regards.
aksel bering
aksel bering 2 aylar önce
If you do decide to expand on the project, would adding a "maximal load" each joint can experience during a throw to make it look a lot more natural stopping it from utilizing the unbreakable joints.
Dan Green
Dan Green 2 aylar önce
Really great - I love your approach to this and the results are cool.
Jonny Esports
Jonny Esports 2 aylar önce
Thank you for calling it a genetic algorithm and not an AI (because everything we keep calling AIs is not actually AI and it triggers me every time I hear it, haha)
daggydog
daggydog 2 aylar önce
This model is very interesting. You could see that there are two acceleration periods where it acts as a whip by turning to create speed. AI is god damn beautiful.
Matt Blumenberg
Matt Blumenberg 2 aylar önce
this is awesome!! i'd love to see the forehand throw also
Eric Sjöberg
Eric Sjöberg 2 aylar önce
I’m curious on what the algorithm used to measure a successful throw. It seems to look at maximum power on release; or speed I guess. There are several other videos on players comparing throws at the same speed with the same disc (at next to no wind) and getting widely different results. Their conclusions are that the spin of the disc (the snap) is directly affecting the results. Incorporating a result value for spin off the disc (still not measuring the flight of the disc) would produce a different throw, likely changing the way the wrist joint is used in the throw. Easy for me to say. Good luck! 😅
Baer the Blader
Baer the Blader 2 aylar önce
Keep going! This is great, and we all will benefit from this research. What about the vertical height of the arm. Does the arm and hand really need to be at shoulder height, or can it be a bit lower?
Daegan Acevedo
Daegan Acevedo 2 aylar önce
Very interesting, I'd like to attempt something similar some day. I'm wondering if future work could involve an ellipse shaped torso to match the shape of a human chest, and if maximum/minimum values can be put on the angles of joints to represent the limits of human motion.
Daegan Acevedo
Daegan Acevedo 2 aylar önce
@Sketches For Humanity Thanks for the response, very informative
Sketches For Humanity
Sketches For Humanity 2 aylar önce
I actually already have the minimum/maximum angles here. I also added a limited rotation ability for the torso, to prevent 360 throws and other spinning shenanigans :) But yeah, the min/max angles could use some kind of dampening near the limits, especially for the shoulders and torso, since this simulator hits the limits pretty hard sometimes. It obviously doesn't work quite like that in humans..
Grobert OAC
Grobert OAC 2 aylar önce
Very interesting video ! One point we could note is that in your throw, you had your whole body involved : your legs mouvement gave more momentum to the disk, which the simulation doesn't have. That could be one of the possibilities while there's a tiny difference in the throws
Jrew Hutchison
Jrew Hutchison 2 aylar önce
Awesome content, also lots of great comments. I think if you normalized the throw curve to the movement of your torso you'd get a lot closer to what the simulation put out
Edward Stewart
Edward Stewart 2 aylar önce
I think holding your body stationary (tracked) and tracing the run up throw would be interesting to see the flight path more comparably. Also adding disc spin to the optimizations might help the simulation evolve.
Jacob Hovas
Jacob Hovas 2 aylar önce
I was about to comment the same thing but I figured someone else had already thought of it too.
Michel GRIGAUT
Michel GRIGAUT Aylar önce
Simulation is the art of tweaking the simulator until it matches what we think it should shows. After this, strangely, we are convinced that the ouput comes from it 🙂
 Douglas MacIlroy
Douglas MacIlroy 2 aylar önce
I'd love to play a round of disc golf with you. Can't, though, so instead i subscribed and liked. That'll have to do. Thanks for this video. You really nailed it. Cheers, D.
e. Fauser
e. Fauser 2 aylar önce
I love the Idea and passion of the video! Are there like constrains (like only the physical possible angle of sm. like a shoulder)? or constrains about how much force an arm can maximal take? I m really bad at coding or physics but: couldn't you avoid humanly impossible movements by punishing the score of the trow? It sounds very complicated but could get interesting results.
thrilliams
thrilliams 2 aylar önce
i wonder if including the spin of the disc in your measurements of fitness would help make the hand position more natural (great video btw)
Just Wondering
Just Wondering 2 aylar önce
Looks like your simulation isn’t too interested in imparting spin to the disc which helps us irl have more distance and control of the disc
Simon Granat
Simon Granat 2 aylar önce
Great job! I would've never thought that you would gain more velocity with a more rounded reach back, now when I see it it seems pretty obvious though. I've compared your "ultimate form" to when the pros throw a 360 backhand, and it's suprisingly similar with the more rounded reach back! Great work man :)
curtis clack
curtis clack 2 aylar önce
​@Barry Mak I very strongly disagree and I don't think you understand the sim and it is absolutely nothing like a beginner. The sim creates as much power from the hips as it wants but it doesn't have a hip joint. AKA the body isn't creating the forces its just transferring it like a real throw. The missing hip join is the cause of the rounded reach back and other issues but the throwing motion is at peak professional form.
curtis clack
curtis clack 2 aylar önce
IRL you don't reach behind, you just bend at your hips which creates the same effect.
Barry Mak
Barry Mak 2 aylar önce
Just remember the parameter is to get the most velocity on the disc. A lot of power is generated from the plant foot through the hips. This simulation doesnt have that. It's all upper body. So it is kind of doing what most beginners do. It's trying to throw really hard using the shoulder and elbow instead of good technique where power is generated in the hips and core with the shoulder and elbow being just the transfer mechanism.
plyzwthsqrlz
plyzwthsqrlz 2 aylar önce
You're the man! You're an incredible programmer. 3:45 is exactly how I throw on the course
HuckingPlastic
HuckingPlastic 2 aylar önce
Lmao
Caelan Haramis
Caelan Haramis 2 aylar önce
😂
CADE
CADE 2 aylar önce
Hilarious watching the different ways the early AI’s threw. Leave the disc floating just behind you then hit it with your follow through on your fake throw. Genius
Varangian501
Varangian501 2 aylar önce
Imagining a real human in its place is peak comedy.
bobby shizz
bobby shizz 2 aylar önce
But can the simulator grip lock a throw 300 feet right and 30 feet behind itself? Fascinating video. Would love to see a follow-up. Great work!
David Levan
David Levan 2 aylar önce
Fantastic analysis. I would love to see your animation compared to a real world analysis of a top pro. Also I have been wondering if adding weight to the off arm would increase velocity, thus additional distance?
curtis clack
curtis clack 2 aylar önce
The left arm weight won't help. The left arm isn't creating the force it is resisting against a force and it creates power through speed/elasticity and explosiveness. You may be able to create more total force with more weight but at a most slower rate it won't translate to speed. A disc weighing 1/2 the weight doesn't travel at twice the speed.
Jack Davidson
Jack Davidson 2 aylar önce
Interesting video! Regarding the had angle, I think it would be valuable to run the simulation with the hand completely limp (or a very low strength value). For myself at least, it's quite difficult to try to leave my hand in that cocked-back position. Perhaps it would be more apt to have some sort of inertial measure implemented, but it's hard to say without seeing the actual simulation environment. Again, kudos on the great video and thanks for the interesting insights it provides!
bunker1213
bunker1213 2 aylar önce
Two interesting points to me from a top-down perspective is a) the much more rounded backswing and b) the "later release angle by rounding at or just after the power pocket. a) could give more time and pre acceleration to the maximum reach back and it's transition over to forward momentum. b) is much (>45 deg) later than what we throw. It may well be beyond the limit of our biomechanics, but I assume it gives a longer acceleration distance and more time/distance near and in the power pocket. The aiming could be less intuitive, but should be learnable.
Akyla Melindeth
Akyla Melindeth 2 aylar önce
Would love to see the updated version with disc spin, complete humanoid morphology, stance, disc weight etc
danehill917
danehill917 2 aylar önce
Love your videos! One thing I noticed that may or may not be useful...in the overhead comparison of your throw vs the robot...Robot is moving the disc in a clockwise pattern from reachback into the throw. Human is doing counter clockwise!?
Daniel Ruegemer
Daniel Ruegemer Aylar önce
very interesting! I think to determine the optimal throw for maximum distance, vmax is just one parameter. To have the required gyroscopic stabilization the disc needs a certain amount of spin. This also. changes the aerodynamics of turn and fade. The perfect question would be what is the ideal throw for max distance for a given disc. I realize this is complex to implement so perhaps the algorithm could be improved by including simulation of the spin and then setting a required mininum.
Jacob Hovas
Jacob Hovas 2 aylar önce
I visualized the hand as being thrown forehand. I know it’s different form and everything, but looking at how the simulation has the hand situated, a forehand throw looks similar when looking at the fingers and direction they are pointed.
Yuppi
Yuppi 2 aylar önce
Listening to you and the topic, I felt like there was something in it, something familiar. But the quality of the video and the studio didn't fit in. Yet here we are, your about said you're finnish. Really good quality video! Big fan of AI, or genetich algorithms and have tried disc golfing a bit. Very interesting application. I once grabbed MarI/O by Seth Bling and watched the AI learn stages of Super Mario World. Very fascinating, it's just that my adjustments to the algorithm basically just made it worse at figuring the game out. The biggest thing was just time, giving the algorithm enough time to try out other paths while converging towards a good one. After hours it gets a bit annoying to watch the algorithm to just stop stand in place watching up until it times out, or running in the first pit after just almost finishing the stage. I don't know what you could do to give the algorithm better idea about what kind of things to start avoiding eventually so it wouldn't waste time on totally useless things after a while. And it's also annoying to have trained it for hours and then see it get really close to the exit and then spend another minute doing very subpar attempts that are far from reaching the exit, before the next time it gets close to the exit. Also there's the dilemma of how general you want it to be, how vague your initial fitness function is, so you don't manually teach the AI everything about the game and sort of ruin the whole idea of using the algorithm, but still have a strong enough fitness function that the AI "understands" to strive for the desired thing in human's perspective. The difficulty of making it intuitively understand its goals and what kind of things to avoid similar to human, without teaching it first. You're very accurate about the strengths of the joints in general. Every powerful move starts from the core, like a punch or a kick or a judo throw. You obviously also increase the moment arm every step you get closer to the core if your load is at the extreme of a limb, so the torso kinda needs to be strong for that reason as well. Furthermore the more distance you travel from the torso, the smaller the muscles are. For example an olympic weightlifter can hold a much higher load overhead than their overhead press strength might indicate. This because they have a very direct line from hands to feet on the ground, everything is in line to minimize the moment arm. And there's another detail: the joints are locked in overhead position. That massively increases the capability to withstand load, for example your elbows need to be locked out or the bar will crush you, there's no way your arms could handle that. Therefore the athlete either presses their scapulae together to make really rigid upperback and shoulder situation by activating lower traps, or they lift their shoulders to ears to lock them by activating upper traps. There's also internal rotation going in the shoulder joint to stabilize the arms in the overhead position and keep them in line with the back, hips and feet. However, during the disc golf throw you don't have the advantage of locking the joints or having them in line, so you're at the mercy of the weakest links. Yet the throw absolutely starts from the massive leg power that your legs can provide, through twisting your core to arms. I think you'd find some really curious variation if you started evolving the joint lengths like real humans do. And also changed the range of motion of the joints like real people have variations from person to person. I bet that would lead to slightly different optimums, just like how humans many times adapt their technique to their body to find the best performance outside the text book example. My idea for the wrist for the algorithm is that it might be something about how fingers work, where the AI doesn't have fingers. It would sort of cause an additional delay that's not necessarily creating more velocity to the throw direction, it's extra turn it has to make to get the disc to release. With human fingers they're curled around the disc but you release them out of the way when your wrist turns at the end. And like you said, the AI doesn't care about the spin. Having multiple freedoms of motions in the joints might also slightly change the behavior of the throw. In the full model you'd also have to consider the individual muscles - the attachment points (that vary per person) and the directions they produce the most force in. Antagonists creating stability and so on. For example in your recorded throw to me it looks like you keep the package way more tight and closer to the body. Very natural for human creating power. And using more chest despite chest not being very beneficial to throw movement, however I think chest helps creating tightness and allows using shoulders more without the arm swinging up. And on top of the rest, how much muscle the thrower has, the growth of a muscle also changes the angle and therefore creates slight disadvantage in producing the force, while improving the force production by creating more contractile tissue. In the end I'm not sure how much the details would impact the black box simplified model though, it's not that uncommon that the general model already filters unnecessary noise out and focuses on the core mechanics. There might be little details on how the joints and muscles work together that limits human compared to the model, or they might not on average case. Do disc golfers look at disucs thrower track and field athletes for technique? That spinning is much different to how disc golf looks to me, but I assume disc golf technique allows more accuracy where discus throwers need to just hit the sector.
Benjamin Mullin
Benjamin Mullin 2 aylar önce
Fantastic work. The video, the algorithm, and the result. I'm curious if you extended the simulation to include the need to impart spin on the disc if that would alter the results relative to the odd wrist angle.
Sketches For Humanity
Sketches For Humanity 2 aylar önce
I think that would definitely make a visible difference! The thing is that the "spin-imparting" in a real backhand throw is such a complex biomechanical system that it might be quite difficult to reproduce in this kind of simplified simulation. It's definitely worth thinking about, though. Maybe there exists a reasonable simplification that could produce interesting results.
Zack W
Zack W 2 aylar önce
10:30 would the hand angle be a by product of setting a time of release? A bit more time could give it the extra time to snap its wrist. Just a thought. Loved the video.
Sketches For Humanity
Sketches For Humanity 2 aylar önce
I tried simulations with many lengths of throws, but it didn't seem to have a visible effect on the hand orientation :/ It's probably got to do with some other things. I have many ideas on what to test next, so it's hopefully going to evolve a lot still :)
Martin Lööf
Martin Lööf 2 aylar önce
Its people like you that makes internet exiting. And hats off to you that just pushing this thing trough even that programming tend to question your mind alot :) Take care and you get sub from me!
Teemu
Teemu 2 aylar önce
@overthrowdiscgolf has some drone footage from Simon and Drew. They both have the angle a little more than 90 degrees. Also the swimming motion with left hand is very clear while Drew is throwing. For example in video with title: "Backhand Footwork & Brace | Pro Form Analysis (ft. Simon Lizotte & Drew Gibson)"
Fart Joke
Fart Joke 2 aylar önce
I would love to see you try to replicate the form, including the weird hand position. I agree that the left arm needs to be modeled though
morrae
morrae 2 aylar önce
I would totally be friends with you irl if I knew you. Amazing video, buddy, that was really fascinating. Cheers
John Shepherd
John Shepherd 2 aylar önce
This is so cool! I'm a huge disc golf fan 😁🥏
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